Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 09:39:45 GMT From: boojum@netcom.com (Jeffrey J. Mancebo) Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) boojum nods, "All good points.. but I have a few more to offer.." Collectors: 1) Watch for the Artists with signs saying how much they charge. This is one of the easiest ways to tell who is willing to draw sketches for money. Wait PATIENTLY. Don't hover, dance about, make noises or interupt their conversation with another customer. If you don't get them the first time around, you can always stop by later. 2) If an Artist looks like they are overwhelmed, don't drop another book on them. Find another artist first and try to get that artist another time. I remember one poor artist sitting at ConFurence with TWO stacks of sketchbooks on the table that were stacked until they reached over his head. And STILL people were trying to give him more. Be patient, there are always other chances. 3) Be polite. If they don't want to draw a particular picture, or draw at all, accept that as a no. Don't even say one 'But'. That's there decision, respect it. 4) If an Artist is kind enough to draw in your Sketchbook at a Furry party for free, track them down at another time and offer to buy them lunch (or something). Many artists also apreciate Chocolate, flowers, diamonds, and lots of other things. Use your imagination. (I still have to track down Bill Fitts. He drew a bunny in my bunny book when I wasn't watching *giggle*) Artists: 1) Don't pounce on a newbie and tell them how Sketchbooks have ruined Furry fandom for artists. I got my first sketchbook after learning a bit about Sketchbook Ettiquit. I was all ready to hunt down willing artists and pay them to sketch in mine. As I was sitting in the Hallway talking to an artist he began to tell me how Black Sketchbooks were evil and were destroying Furry Fandom. He went on and on along this vein, and there I was ready to slit my throat for owning one. AS a result the Sketchbook went unused for 2 years. You have a right to your opinion, but please don't ruin another newbies fun by attacking them. 2) If you are feeling overloaded, PLEASE say no to another Sketchbook. boojum the brown bunny Date: 15 Apr 1996 18:53:21 GMT From: elkabong@mailbag.com (Jim Groat) Organization: GraphXPress In article , mauser@claris.com (Richard Chandler) wrote: : :>Sketchbook Etiquette :>Version of 5/19/95 :>The sketchbook as we know it today, and I'm referring specifically to the :>ubiquitous black sketchbooks furries are known for carrying, has a certain :>tradition behind it that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom are :>sadly unaware of. > :>They also grew out of a way of showing friendship. Money doesn't buy love or :>friendship. While it may buy a sketch, remember that much of the sketching :>you will see going on will be between friends, because the artist WANTS to do :>it for a friend. Don't push the issue - you might not be as close to someone :>as you think, and it's no fun to find that out. This point is especially true, I don't know how many times I've done something special for someone only to have a fanboy shove a book in my face wanting the Sistine Chapel ceiling fully rendered in his book FOR FREE. Another point is missing here, if an artist is doing the books and you're expecting a free piece put in, don't hover around the artist expecting him/her to drop everything and begin immediatly.Especially when the artist has got PAYING pieces to finish first. Ask any artist, pay comes before free anytime, they're working for that money, why should they drop the paying ones because some whiney fanboy wants his done immediatly so he could bother someone else. Also don't expect a free piece to look something like the sunday edition of prince valiant,especially if there is a growing stack next to the artist. The artist will get to your book in the order in which it was recieved or if your particular theme strikes the artist right. Quite often I'll place the paying one on top of the freebies and get those out of the way first. One more bit of etiquette here should be mentioned, if the artist has a table DO NOT cover his/her merchandise with your stuff and just stand there. I've gotten to a point to now toss the offending product covering MY product onto the floor. Those things are to be sold and looked at, not covered with your shit so potential customers cannot see it. Use your head. :>There are several points of etiquette on both sides of the equation. :> :>If you own a sketchbook, remember the following: :> :>The tradition of sketchbooks involves TRADING sketches. If you have no :>artistic talent, or just aren't confident enough in your abilities, it is not :>unreasonable to offer something else of value to the artist, be it a copy of :>a 'zine, a favor, (sex?) or money. But if you can't draw, don't insist on :>trying. THIS IS VITAL...I've had numerous pages ruined by no talent wannabees, I'll only razor them out. :>Some artists are perfectly willing to do sketches for no consideration. Be :>very nice to these people. They think that having other people see their :>work in your book will be reward enough. However, just because they do it :>for someone else doesn't mean that they owe you anything. It's perfectly :>natural for an artist to give preferential treatment to his friends. Bitch :>about it and you can make sure that you aren't on his list of friends. : :>Be polite. And if an artist turns you down, accept it. He may be tired of :>drawing, may not want to do your theme, or he may have some other reason. If :>he has a huge stack of books pending, he's probably doing you a favor by :>letting you go to someone else first. Besides, do you really want someone :>working on your book who is pissed at you? :> :>Remember that the work is their work. You may own the paper, but the rights :>belong to the artist. Making copies for the artist is good. Making copies :>for your own backup in case something happens to the book is good. Making :>copies and giving them out to lots of people, or even worse, publishing them :>in a 'zine or scanning them without permission, is very bad. The way to :>share the art is to show other people the book. I don't know how many times I've seen this, 'Copy parties' are the most annoying above all. I can't begin to think of all the "files" i've seen on certain artists taken (stolen) from books, especially at parties. I've know books to have vanished for a few hours only to "suddenly show up" and copies of various artwork in private hands only to be copied some more. This is highly Verboten. :> :>I do have to mention the most heinous act that can be done to a book. :>Stealing. Rarely is an entire book stolen, but, to give one of the most arch :>examples, pages have been torn out and stolen. A friend told me about :>someone taking a razor blade and cutting nine fully colored pictures from one :>of his books. Just think, now nobody will be able to see those pictures :>again except the thief, who probably just filed them away somewhere. So much :>for sharing. Someone who does something like this should be vilified by the :>entire fandom (And we know how long furries can hold a grudge). Being the mentioned victim, I was EXTREAMLY annoyed by this action. I felt violated. I lost Larry Dixon ,Vicky Wyman, Gallacci,Terrie Smith (2 pieces),Deal Whitley, Mary Hansen Roberts, Tom Verre` and Donna Barr. If I ever catch the thief I'll personally show the person their kidneys on the outside of their body. One more thing that I've seen happen at a con, I witnessed some jealous little asshole VANDALIZING a sketchbook. He had taken a black sharpie and writting comments on the various pieces of art, mainly degrading comments and little doodles over the artwork itself. Another Violator photographed the work in various books at a con party and made and sold the copies of the pictures. :>On the artist's side: :> > :>And if you accept a book with the promise of mailing it back, do so promptly. :>If you are going to get other artists in your area to work on the book, your :>responsibility for the book doesn't end when you hand it off. You must make :>sure that it gets back to the owner, even if someone else promises to take :>care of sending it back. I've heard of books being gone for three years and when returned having only a half finished sketch inside with a note saying "I'll finish it later when I have more time". To get random signatures put text files into a folder called ³Random Signatures² into your Preferences folder. Subject: [alt.fan.furry] Sketchbook Etiquette File Date: 21 Apr 1996 17:15:30 GMT Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <4l1bih$d88@newsbf02.news.aol.com> From: pelzig@mailhost.accesscom.net (Pelzig) Message-ID: <4ldqfi$hmh@ux.accesscom.net> Organization: Knechtschaft Studio Greets. Ed "Pelzig" Dyer here, weighing in kinda late on the "Sketchbook Etiquette" thread. My very first ConFURence, number V to be exact, was my true introduction to the furry world and pretty much shaped my art ever since in regards to the subjects of my works. It was also the first time I noticed alot of folks carrying about these books, most of them black. I didn't know much about them since in the convention scene where I reside ( New Orleans ), you rarely see sketchbooks, if at all. One late Saturday night, I was up in the vacated Artist's Alley section and was doodling when I was approached and asked to do a sketch in a book. It felt rather neat to do so and I still remember the bunnygirl I did in it. It wasn't until ConFURence VII that I did sketchbooks in great amounts. Before that, I'd do one or two at various cons and CFEast I, I did about five. But CF 7, I did about 15 illustrations. Richard Chandler had swung by that table which resided in the front of the lobby of the Atrium (Thursday or Friday...can't remember) where some of us had gathered, doing sketchbooks. And he popped open his case and started handing out copies of the "Sketchbook Etiquette" to any and all who lingered about the table. I wish that some of the furs I did sketches for had gotten ahold of Richard's flyer. In some cases, when asked to do a sketchbook, I got what would amount to a full-blown commission. One had half a page of description which tried to fit as much fetish as you could into one illustration. Darned near took some two hours just to get a pose to convey it all, let alone the detailing to it. That and others I did I wish I had a copy of. I gave my buisness card to the holder of the book and asked for a xerox. Didn't have to be a wonderful one, just a xerox for my portfolio. I'm not the swiftest artist around. Often, when I have about three books piled up and someone else asks for one, I'll let them know that it'll be awhile and that if they desire another artist to put a piece in their book, to see about them first (chances are, the artist they mention is a little faster than me). If they decide to leave it, I let them know about how long it'll be before I get to it. Sometimes I'll charge for sketches, sometimes I won't. In all honesty, it depends on how well I am doing at the convention. It never runs over five dollars if I do. Also, if I think I muffed the pic or it doesn't look good enough to me (although it might to the book holder), I only ask for the xerox. Lately, in the efforts of speed, I've taken to only using pencil for the sketchbook illos. That and that at CF7, nearly every sketchbook I used inks on, disagreed with the pens I used and made inking a long chore. Maybe it was the pens I use...I dunno. But given one of the pens of choice I use...it would spark another thread about it. :) If the convention is slow and I have the time, I'll ink it. Hearing what Jim Groat wrote about taking the razor to someones book...that disgusts me. In many of the sketchbooks I've worked in or just flipped thru, I marvel at the works in them, especially finished Steve Martin and Robert Guthrie illustrations (the detail in those is staggering). How anybody could tear them out is beyond me...wait...maybe not. Given the low levels of some out there...I can see it. Let me see that happening...and this gray fox will get ugly. I keep a good eye on any book in my care, usually hiding them among the extra stock I keep under the table or somewhere where trying to get to it is tough without attracting attention to someone who shouldn't be behind the table. And it is quite amusing to see sketchbook illos I had done for me appear in print. This happened to me twice, both from the only ersatz sketchbook I've ever kept. I once recieved a Genus #11 from my comic shop which had nine blank pages in it. The shop keeper said he'd return it and get another but I told him no...I have another idea. So I asked various artists if they would fill in the black pages and so it came to pass. Thanks to those that did. But one of them appeared in a portfolio and another in the pages of a well-known furryzine. The first one surprised me when I actually bought the portfolio is was in. Imagine my surprise as I flipped thru the contents and ran across the sketch. The second one in the 'zine surprised me too...but then I remembered the artist's stipends when it came to paying sketches and who keeps the rights to it. Oh, well...no biggie. :) And I've now taken to using a stamper to stamp my address onto the piece as it seems giving out business cards seems not to work. I want to thank Rich for spreading the word about sketchbooks for even I to learned some things from it. If anybody out there reading this got a sketch from me at CF7, I'd like a copy please. At least five come to mind that I myself really loved and would like to see again. TCASF, Ed "Pelzig" Dyer c/o Knechtschaft Studio 2823 Chestnut Street New Orleans, LA 701115 Ed "Pelzig" Dyer: Furry/Anime Illustrator, Furzine Editor, and Small Press Publisher for Knechtschaft Studio. Portfolios, commissions, and fur fanzines Viktoria's Secret and Furlined for the fur fan! Check out our homepage at http://tau-ceti.isc-br.com/furry-stuff/pelzig/pelzig.html (hugs, Kal!) Subject: [alt.fan.furry] Sketchbook Etiquette File Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 19:58:31 GMT Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <4ldqfi$hmh@ux.accesscom.net> From: tygger@netcom.com (Tygger) Organization: ...one of these days my work WILL sell.... Message-ID: *waves* Hi. Thought I'd add something else to this thread. No, I'm not going to rant. Those days are very much over. No, just adding a few more cents to this particular ante. Something that a few other artists as well as myself wish the fans (be they the infamous Fanboys or not) would do: not assume that when the dealer's room is closed that the artist is *still* on duty, as it were. Some artists will only do sketches when the dealer's room is open, some will continue to do them after the room closes down. Please, never assume that when an artist happens to come into your room party, he/she will set up shop. I've seen this happen too many times to others as well as myself, this assumption, and hard feelings can start up between the parties: the artist is upset/angered/annoyed at the assumption they must perform at the party, the fan(s) or host of the party is upset/angered/annoyed/insulted when the artist refuses to work or does so under obvious protest. This will sometimes result in the artist no longer appearing at parties due to not wanting to deal with this particular situation. Please understand that I'm NOT saying this happens to all artists and at all parties. But it does happen. There are some I myself will not go to due that assumption. At the last one I was at, I didn't have a book in my lap due to getting a nice shoulder rub when a fan just literally *dropped* their book in lap saying "YOU don't have a book. Draw for me!" There are worse scenarios, but I'm sure you all get the point. To the artists: if you're not taking books after the dealer's den is closed or are just sick of them (gods know I've had those times too ;), please let your feelings be known. Many who've spoken to me in person or online have expressed the worry and concern about alienating the fans due to not wanting to draw when asked. To that, based on my own experience, I say: take the chance. Many fans worry *greatly* about being a fanboy and don't want to upset the artist by asking or pestering. If we, including myself in this, don't talk to the fans, old sterotypes, hard feelings, and general miscommunication can make con going hard. Just a little bit of common sense and courtesy, on the parts of BOTH fan and artist can make the con all that more enjoyable for both sides. [drops in her two bits then wanders off: clink clink] -- Tygger -- **************************************************************** tygger@netcom.com ***************************************************************** "It's like I've always said: you can get more with a kind word and a 2x4 than you can with a kind word." Marcus, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark", Babylon 5 Subject: Offshoot from dwylfin's rant Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 17:34:10 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> From: elkabong@mailbag.com (Jim Groat) Message-ID: Organization: GraphXPress In article <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, baccus@ix.netcom.com wrote: :>Concerning the practice of Blackbooks. :> :>I've never been to a con but have read up on eveything posted on here :>concerning them. I was hoping to get a couple of personal sketches of :>the unfinished type from the occasional artists. I always thought of :>the blackbook as a way of introducing yourself to them and striking up :>a conversation. If this has changed I scotch that idea and show up :>with money and buy their whole table doing anyway>. Could I get some input from the artists out there on :>their current feelings toward Sketchbooks and such. :> :>I'd rather not piss anyone off on my first time out. Rich Chandler ran an excellent article on Sketchbook Etiquette (You reading this Rich?) which pretty much ran the do's and don'ts of Blackbooks. Normally if you act human around the artist, you get better response. Just shoving a sketchbook in the artists face and saying Draw *this* and leaving will 99% of the time have the book cast aside. Bear in mind, most of the pros do this for a living, they need to make something a a con. However there are always options in this game. 1) Don't plop down a moving van load of sketchbooks and expect the artist to draw in all of them (Unless you pay handsomely). 2) Remember this, paying sketches always take presidence over freebies, the artist will get to your book eventually if you are expecting free art. And don't expect the Sistine Chapel in quality for free art. I don't know how many times I heard,"Why didn't you color it? You colored so and so's, why not mine?" 3) Allow the artist time, this is a major bug up my ass, having a BBfan hover near the table, especially when trying to conduct business. Not every artist is a Donna Barr in speed. If you see a huge pile of books next to the artist, try again later,or at least ask the artist if they'll have time later. Worse case, set up a drop off time for your book. 4)If your book as a certain theme in it that might bother the artist, don't push it. Not everybody likes drawing hermaphrodite vixens doing 69's on top of Ford Pintos while fondling Mitch Berio at a drive-in theatre thats playing The Mighty Ducks get killed in a snow blower. 5) NEVER plop down all your stuff on the artists table, especially if they have product on it. They are selling that stuff and can't if your shit is covering it all up. Far too many fans pull this stunt in my opinion. And especially never leave a drink on the table, accidents happen. 6)Be polite,artists respond better to polite people that rude fans, or pushy fans. 7) Offer to get something if the artist is obviously tied to their table, not getting the chance to grab a drink or something. This wins favors and nicer art quite often. 8) Set up a payment, this will depend on the artist if they want it up front or upon completion. Also cash works best followed by travelers checks. (Dinners,serious sales at the table and sometimes even sex works too) 9)Remember, you're at a con, lots of people want sketches and sadly sometimes your artist in question simply couldn't get to your book in time. You can always ask if the artist can do it at home in their leisure. And always offer to pay for return shipping. 10)Going up to the artist and simply talking to them (Providing they aren't busy with other folks) is generally okay. Your artist might not mind you standing and talking with them while they are doing your book, they might even invite you behind the table if the seat next to them is empty. 11) If you are one of those who are photographers and must have a photo of the artist, ALWAYS ask first and give them time to pose or prep themselves. That nasty little flash often bothers the artist, especially if they wear glasses if you shoot unannounced. 12) Use a quality sketchbook, cheap ones only ruin the art in the long run and if rendered in marker, soaks up ink like a sponge, again ruining the art. Always write your name and mailing address on the inside front cover. Marking your name on the outside edges are recommended also, makes it easier to spot in a stack of books. A personal note here, I don't like the sketchbooks that are 12x18 or bigger, they are a pain in the ass. 9x12 and smaller are better to work with. Can anybody else add something that I'm sure I missed? _____________________________________________________________________ Beware of naked bus drivers. http://www.graphxpress.com/main.html http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1551 Subject: Offshoot from dwylfin's rant Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 10:31:59 -0500 Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> From: "Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn" Message-ID: <32AADF69.111C@ma.ultranet.com> Organization: The Ea'Lurian Common Reply-To: jeff.rogers@ummed.edu Jim Groat wrote: > 2) Remember this, paying sketches always take presidence over freebies, > the artist will get to your book eventually if you are expecting free art. > And don't expect the Sistine Chapel in quality for free art. I don't know > how many times I heard,"Why didn't you color it? You colored so and so's, > why not mine?" *Grin*... What is the "going" rate for a sketchbook pix in pencils/inks? What is the "bribe" level for a priority job? *chuckle* I always figured a simple, full page pencil job warrants a ten-spot. Something pens/inks and colors deserves a twenty...sound about right? > 6)Be polite,artists respond better to polite people that rude fans, or > pushy fans. Sounds simple, doesn't it? Why can't people understand it? > > 7) Offer to get something if the artist is obviously tied to their table, > not getting the chance to grab a drink or something. This wins favors and > nicer art quite often. I often thought how popular one would be if he walked around the dealer's room, dressed as a vendor giving away free sandwiches and orange juice to the table-bound hucksters! :) > > 8) Set up a payment, this will depend on the artist if they want it up > front or upon completion. Also cash works best followed by travelers > checks. (Dinners,serious sales at the table and sometimes even sex works > too) At SDCC, I usually slipped a $10 in the book as a "bookmark" on the page I wanted said artist to illustrate. I did this even to artists that would do freebies...I figured they'd be pleased to have that: I got the absolutely greatest picture from Steve Rude (original artist/creator of "Nexus"). I didn't know Ambush Bug could square-dance... > 12) Use a quality sketchbook, cheap ones only ruin the art in the long run > and if rendered in marker, soaks up ink like a sponge, again ruining the > art. Always write your name and mailing address on the inside front cover. > Marking your name on the outside edges are recommended also, makes it > easier to spot in a stack of books. A personal note here, I don't like the > sketchbooks that are 12x18 or bigger, they are a pain in the ass. 9x12 and > smaller are better to work with. > > Can anybody else add something that I'm sure I missed? Yes. I think most artists would appreciate a copy of the work they just created. I've always informed the artist after he/she has finished the work that I would be making two photopies of the picture. One for my archives and another that I will mail back to them. I've always done this. I've only had a couple artists say "no, don't bother" to this. The rest seemed to jump at this idea. -Skorzy > _____________________________________________________________________ > Beware of naked bus drivers. ...and crossing guards, and police officers, and politicians...? -- J. Scott Rogers (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn / rat-Biorg Physician) UMASS Medical Center Dept. of Biochemistry ** skorzy@ma.ultranet.com ** Program in Molecular Medicine ** jeff.rogers@ummed.edu ** "The Home for Tenured Graduate Students" <-- Under Construction! http://www.ummed.edu:8000/pub/j/jrogers/ Subject: Offshoot from dwylfin's rant Date: 8 Dec 1996 23:18:25 GMT Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32AADF69.111C@ma.ultranet.com> From: cat@bga.com (Dr. Cat) Message-ID: <58fic1$tc4@news3.realtime.net> Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn (skorzy@ma.ultranet.com) wrote: : *Grin*... What is the "going" rate for a sketchbook pix in : pencils/inks? What is the "bribe" level for a priority job? *chuckle* : I always figured a simple, full page pencil job warrants a ten-spot. : Something pens/inks and colors deserves a twenty...sound about right? I don't think there can or should be a "standard" rate for work from artists. How much their time is in demand varies widely, not to mention how much of their time they decide they want to dedicate to doing sketches. I doubt you'd ever get a sketch for ten dollars from Boris Vallejo. If Picasso were still alive you'd probably find Japanese businessmen fighting to pay half a million dollars to get a pencil sketch from him. :X) On the other hand there are fan artists who don't feel their work is polished enough to ever charge money for but they enjoy sketching for friends for free. So anyway I think a sketch warrants exactly what an artist decides to charge for sketches. Paying a bit more is ok if you especially like their work, if you think they're too modest and tend to undercharge, or if you are wealthy and like to make artists happy. Paying some "typical going rate" doesn't fit in with my little universe. If there's some artist out there that wants money for their work but doesn't know how much and can't name a figure for me and expects me to make them an offer... Nine times out of ten I'm going to figure I don't need the hassle and they can sell their work to somebody who's comfortable dealing with that. I don't want to play "try to guess a number that won't make me feel miserable because it's too small and won't make you miserable because it's too big" roulette. And if an artist will name a number and I can just pay that, I don't need to know what the "going rate" is. :X) *********************************************************************** Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions ** ********************************************** Watch this space! Furcadia - coming soon to your computer! ** *********************************************************************** (Disclaimer: You don't have to have a ten-spot to be a furry fan. Or have fur with spots. Or see spots before your eyes.) Subject: Offshoot from dwylfin's rant Date: 5 Dec 1996 22:46:28 -0500 Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> From: garyb@zot.io.org (Gary Burke) Message-ID: <5884uk$1m5@zot.io.org> Organization: Internex Online (shell.io.org), Toronto, Ontario, Canada In article <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, wrote: >Concerning the practice of Blackbooks. > >I've never been to a con but have read up on eveything posted on here >concerning them. I was hoping to get a couple of personal sketches of >the unfinished type from the occasional artists. I always thought of >the blackbook as a way of introducing yourself to them and striking up >a conversation. If this has changed I scotch that idea and show up >with money and buy their whole table doing anyway>. Could I get some input from the artists out there on >their current feelings toward Sketchbooks and such. > >I'd rather not piss anyone off on my first time out. You won't piss anyone off by just having a collection sketchbook and asking politely for people to draw in it (paying for it if th artist so wishes). I am a furry artist, not a well known one so I do sketchbooks for free to friends. Of course artists of terrie smith fame/caliber are deluged with the things. so there is of course a charge, and a reasonable expectation of time etc. that the fan must accept. Sketchbook horror stories could fill a sketchbook themselves. but they are only a very few people, mostly with poor social skills who seem to be the cause o them. Some furries can take furry art WY WAY too seriously and that is when problems occur. (the Cult of the Artist). Everyone in frfandom is human, whether or not we'd like to be furries. :) Treat them as such and you'll do fine. Sketchbooks are not inherently evil . it is the wielder of them who inspires friendliness or dislike. On BOTH sides of the artist/fan wall. -- gary burke------------------------------------------------------------------ "I just got one thing to say: you better WORK IT!" Subject: Offshoot from dwylfin's rant Date: 8 Dec 1996 23:18:25 GMT Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32AADF69.111C@ma.ultranet.com> From: cat@bga.com (Dr. Cat) Message-ID: <58fic1$tc4@news3.realtime.net> Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn (skorzy@ma.ultranet.com) wrote: : *Grin*... What is the "going" rate for a sketchbook pix in : pencils/inks? What is the "bribe" level for a priority job? *chuckle* : I always figured a simple, full page pencil job warrants a ten-spot. : Something pens/inks and colors deserves a twenty...sound about right? I don't think there can or should be a "standard" rate for work from artists. How much their time is in demand varies widely, not to mention how much of their time they decide they want to dedicate to doing sketches. I doubt you'd ever get a sketch for ten dollars from Boris Vallejo. If Picasso were still alive you'd probably find Japanese businessmen fighting to pay half a million dollars to get a pencil sketch from him. :X) On the other hand there are fan artists who don't feel their work is polished enough to ever charge money for but they enjoy sketching for friends for free. So anyway I think a sketch warrants exactly what an artist decides to charge for sketches. Paying a bit more is ok if you especially like their work, if you think they're too modest and tend to undercharge, or if you are wealthy and like to make artists happy. Paying some "typical going rate" doesn't fit in with my little universe. If there's some artist out there that wants money for their work but doesn't know how much and can't name a figure for me and expects me to make them an offer... Nine times out of ten I'm going to figure I don't need the hassle and they can sell their work to somebody who's comfortable dealing with that. I don't want to play "try to guess a number that won't make me feel miserable because it's too small and won't make you miserable because it's too big" roulette. And if an artist will name a number and I can just pay that, I don't need to know what the "going rate" is. :X) *********************************************************************** Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions ** ********************************************** Watch this space! Furcadia - coming soon to your computer! ** *********************************************************************** (Disclaimer: You don't have to have a ten-spot to be a furry fan. Or have fur with spots. Or see spots before your eyes.) Subject: Sketchbook Medians Date: 10 Dec 1996 23:24:00 GMT Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32AADF69.111C@ma.ultranet.com> <58fic1$tc4@news3.realtime.net> <32AB773F.531A@ma.ultranet.com> From: cat@bga.com (Dr. Cat) Message-ID: <58kreg$9as@news3.realtime.net> Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn (skorzy@ma.ultranet.com) wrote: : *grin*. Yeah... My point was for the Furry Genre. I doubt Boris : Vallejo would be caught dead at a Furrycon (he doesn't do scifi cons : much anymore in that fact)...Picasso, maybe... :) My point is that there exist significant disparities in the demand for the work of different artists, and therefore in the economic value of their sketching time. If you want to think examples of non-furry artists don't show that, fine - "sketches by Terrie Smith and Michelle Light are much more in demand than sketches by newcomers or less popular artists". Granted the disparity between in the fandom from least demanded to most demanded isn't as large as it is in fields where you talk about artists like Vallejo or Picasso. But do you think it's a GOOD thing that we don't have any artists that successful yet? Me, I think it'd be great if we got one. I also think they might be a little dismayed if they showed up and found everyone running up to them with an attitude like "You do sketches for ten bucks, right? Everyone does sketches for ten bucks!" : I think there is a unwritten "standard" amount for charging for the : Blackbooks. The price seems to be more or less "judged" by the : economics of the fandom.. i.e. charge too much, you do few books, charge : a little, you're swamped. I think for some artists, doing few books might be a GOAL, not a failure. If they want to spend 99% of their time enjoying the con and maybe do 2 or 3 quick sketches the whole weekend, more power to them. If they want to establish a higher than average price for their original art and limited edition prints because of the quality of their work, and want to charge higher rates for sketchbook sketches to so as to possibly support that same public perception of quality and scarcity, fine by me. : > On the other hand there are fan artists who don't feel : > their work is polished enough to ever charge money for but they enjoy : > sketching for friends for free. : Oh sure! Absolutely! But they're the artist's friends! Asking money : in that situation would be inappropriate IMHO. You're missing the point. These people don't charge money to strangers EITHER, they don't charge money to anybody, ever. I just mentioned friends because they more commonly get requests from friends than from strangers. Do I have to make all of these examples purrfect to get the point across? : > So anyway I think a sketch warrants exactly what an artist decides to : > charge for sketches. : Sure...but there's an economics factor that must influence their : decision on how much to charge. This would whittle down to a "standard" : amount (give or take a standard deviation...) that I think most furry : artists would charge. No, it whittles down to supply and demand. How do you get the notion that economics dictates a "standard" amount? For average quality sketches by average artists sketching for average fans it will probably hover around a certain average price, but there are going to be sketches done for lots less or lots more than that too. Everything that involves numbers has an average, and many of them are distributed in a bell-shaped curve that means most things are close to that average. That doesn't make the average a "standard" value. At most maybe you could call it a "rule of thumb". Standards are presumed to be fairly reliable, accurate, or even "official". Rules of thumb are generally presumed to provide only rough guesses. : What you seem to dislike is "negotiating"...or better yet "haggling"... : If the artist has no idea how much to "suggest" a price, that leaves it : open for you to open the "bidding" as it were. I have no problem with : this, if the artist doesn't like what I offer (and it would be an amount : I think is appropriate) then I guess there's no deal. Or the artist accepts it because they're desperate, and feels depressed or resentful about not making as much as they want to. Or they don't feel badly towards me but they live on macaroni and cheese and keep missing bill payments because they consistently end up getting half as much money as they could get if they had more self esteem and were willing to firmly establish prices that represented the market value of their work. Or there is indeed no deal as you say AND some artist walks away thinking I'm a jerk for offering them five or ten bucks for something they regularly get offered ten times as much for by people who know what their work usually sells for. Damn straight I don't like haggling. One of the great joys of a mass market is that after selling a few hundred million hamburgers or teddy bears or lawn chairs, they can get a pretty clear idea what they can charge for them, and I can just go in and pay a specific price and save myself a few minutes of haggling time and get back to making something to sell myself or enjoying my free time or whatever I was doing. Some people enjoy haggling as a leisure activity in itself, and that's fine, but I can't see doing that unless both parties are dealing with cash and/or goods they have plenty of extra of and don't really have strong needs involved. Way too many artists are poor and struggling and I can't find any recreational value in haggling when I'm dealing with someone who's in that position. : If an artist names a price, even if I can pay that amount, its still my : personal decision if the work is worth it... generally, I would consider : a great deviation from an "expected" price a negative in that : decision... If Terrie Smith or somebody else popular were charging significantly more than the average rate, and you didn't know that until you asked to get a sketch, fine, you'll say no thanks. But this wouldn't be a problem with Terrie and her actions, or a problem with the way the furry market works. If anything it's a problem for anyone who comes in with unrealistic expectations of how much they're going to have to pay a popular artist and comes away dissapointed. The solution is either to learn more in advance about which artists charge higher for sketches, or to abandon this notion that you should expect roughly similar rates from everyone. I buy art based on the comparison of how much it's worth to me vs. the artist's asking price, I imagine most people do. But I go in with NO preconceived notions about what the asking price will be, I just find out and decide whether the piece is worth it to me or not. No expectations, I don't need them to make a decision anyway. Furry artists have enough problems already, chief among them being that there really isn't enough money being spent total for hardly anyone to make sufficient income to live on. The last thing I want them to be subjected to is advance expectations of any kind. Someone expecting "If you draw furries you will be willing to draw spooge for me" is annoying, and someone expecting "If you draw furries you will do sketches for ten dollars for me" is annoying. Fans who just politely ASK about whatever it is they want, and politely accept whatever the answer is, that's not annoying. Purrsonally, I wouldn't even presume "If you are a furry artist you will do some kind of sketch in a black book for me for some kind of price". Because I know there are artists that prefer not even to do sketches at cons. Luckily for me, this knowledge helps me to avoid being a drooling fanboy. Well, that and mopping the corners of my mouth regularly with a handkerchief. :X) I guess that's what's really at the core of what bothers me about the whole sketchbook phenomenon. Too high a percentage of the people carrying them around and getting sketches are making assumptions about how that whole "process" or "part of the fandom" will/does/should work. And I don't like anything that leads to people making assumptions about or demands of the artists. I know many people make no such assumptions and treat the artists fine, but there's enough problems with sketchbook issues that I prefer to simply not involve myself personally in that part of the fandom. *********************************************************************** Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions ** ********************************************** Watch this space! Furcadia - coming soon to your computer! ** *********************************************************************** (Disclaimer: I have no idea what Terrie Smith charges for sketches, whether she just does free sketches, or if she'll even do sketches for people. I only put in her name so that A) nobody will say "That's nice but this isn't about Boris Vallejo" and B) so that 37 rabid fans will send me nasty email claiming I horrendously misrepresented her sketch pricing policies and they are going to stalk me now.) Subject: Sketchbook Medians Date: 12 Dec 1996 09:52:29 GMT Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32AADF69.111C@ma.ultranet.com> <58fic1$tc4@news3.realtime.net> <32AB773F.531A@ma.ultranet.com> <58kreg$9as@news3.realtime.net> <58l11s$5mu@eve.enteract.com> From: jeff@unix.tggh.net (Jeff Mancebo) Message-ID: <58okkt$6gq@masters0.InterNex.Net> Organization: TGGH, Inc. Karl Meyer (ferret@enteract.com) wrote: : : I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't bring a sketchbook to a con. : Early on when I got involved in the fandom I did buy a couple of them : since it seemed they were rather prevelent. Then I got to CF6 and saw how : some people would act like it was their right to get every artist there to : spend time sketching in their book. I saw artists with so many of them : stacked up that you had to look over them to see who was at the table. I : noticed how hot and muggy it was in the room. It seemed to me that : spending an entire convention drawing in book after book under those : conditions wouldn't be a lot of fun. It also seemed like trying to keep : track of a sketchbook so it could get to as many artists as possible also : wouldn't be much fun. I left my books in the room and went and did things : that did seem like fun...and they were. I certainly came back with plenty : of art anyway and figured if I wanted I could likely commision a piece : from most of the artists that I might have wanted sketches from and end up : happier with the finished art. The few commisions I've bought has proven : this out. Count me in with the bookless. boojum cocks his head. "I find it interesting how many people are upset about sketchbooks. Lets face it, it's not the sketchbook thats a problem, its some of the fans who carry them." He says, nose twitching. "A sketchbook is generally (now days) a collection of various artists works that no one else might have seen that you can easily take to a Fan Party and show around. How people go about getting these sketches depends completely on the person. Some people are very polite and some are (frankly) assholes about it." The brown bunny grins. "As for drawing in book after book being no fun.. your probably right. But then many of the artists who go to confurence aren't THERE for fun! They are there to sell their art so they can EAT!" He bounces happily. "I've worked behind the table for artists befor. For some a con is a place to enjoy. But for many it's the difference between making rent this month or not. Is it any wonder that they take some of the time they spend behind the table to draw in sketchbooks? Especially when they are getting paid cash up front for them?" His eyes turn thoughtfull. "As to how people act about sketchbooks.. there are problems on both sides. There are some fans out there who feel that because they support an artist by purchasing their products that it is their right to dictate what the artist will draw. This is DEAD wrong. An artist has the right to choose what they will and will not draw." The bunnies ears perk up. "However Artists, there is no denying that the fans will have an INFLUENCE on what you draw. If all you wanted to do was draw for the sheer joy you would be keeping your art to yourself or giving it away for free or for the cost of the materials. Lets face it, your selling a product. And anytime you sell a product your going to be influenced by the interests of your target audiance. There are some artists who are rabid about not being influenced to the point that they drive away fans, yet they still want to sell their art. Some are good enough to pull this off, others aren't." boojum grins happily, "That said, if you have your shiney new sketchbook, here are some things I can reccomend to help you get alot of enjoyment from it." He bounces gently. "Item 1. If an artist seems to be having a bad day. If they allready have a stack of sketchbooks on their table, or if there is a crowd of buyers waiting to buy things... Wait your turn! There is NO rush. The art you get will be better and the artist will be more likely to be willing to draw for you if you wait until they have a moment of time. You may not get the artist you want the first time. Thats OK! There WILL be other cons! Other chances to get a drawing! Whatever you do, don't badger them." He smiles about the next one. "Item 2. Artists work cons to make money. Often they have spent money on a table, on travelling to and from the con, on a room.. Most artists will be more than happy to sell you something, but asking them to give you something for free is a bit much. If you are their friend then you can get a drawing from them when they AREN'T at "work". If you aren't, then why are you asking them to accept a smaller "paycheck" so you can have the drawing you want? Be reasonable and think befor you ask an artist for something. They are their to sell their wares and as long as you don't interfere with that they will usually be more than happy to talk with you or even draw for you for the right price." "Item 3." He says with another bounce. "Read the Sketchbook FAQ! there is ALOT of good information in there no ettiquette and preservation." "Item 4. If an artist doesn't want to draw something, accept that. Don't pester them or try to argue them into doing the sketch. Don't ask for a similar sketch and try to alter it to be what you origionally wanted. I don't think I've ever seen an artist throw a fit the first time they are asked to draw something. I HAVE seen one throw a fit when someone doesn't take no as NO and keeps at them." "Item 5. Don't hover. The artist is there to make money and your sketchbook is NOT the only whey they usually do that. They will likely be working on the drawing on and off and having the purchaser right there watching over their shoulder can be irritating to say the least. I like to get an approximate time from them to come back for the drawing. If your picture isn't done by then, don't worry! Many things come up at a con that might keep them from working no it for a bit. Just get another time to come back and go enjoy the con!" He grins, "Item 6. The food at the artists table is there for people buying things. Since your buying a sketch it's true your entitled to A cookie or A piece of candy. Don't use this as an excuse to spend all your money on art and live off what they have at their tables. Leave some for others to have as well. If someone has a REALLY good table, with munchies you just can't keep away from, give them an extra few dollars (use common sense) and tell them WHY you are giving it to them! Many dealers (and artists) truly appreciate knowing their efforts are appreciated." He pauses, thinking for a bit. "My, this is getting to be a long list and I've forgotten alot of advice. Oh well, for my final (I think) item of advice... Item 7. READ what is on the Artists table. Often they will have a price list and someplace on the price list there will be a price for sketches! This makes it a simple thing to choose which artist to go to for a sketch. It's the one who obviously wants your business. Frankly, if they don't have a sketchbook price or commission price I won't go to them for a drawing in my sketchbook. Also, if they DO do sketches, ask to see what one of the sketches they do looks like. Some artists charge just as much for a single page in a sketchbook as they do for a commissioned piece of the same size. This is normally because they do the same quality of WORK in the sketchbook as they would have if you'd just gotten them to draw the piece seperately." boojum the brown bunny grins at everyone. "I hope that helps those who WANT to have a nice sketchbook to show their friends without irritating the artist community at large. After you get one or two drawings in your book from a particular artist they will often remember you kindly the next time you show up and be more inclined to draw another picture... provided you treat them with courtesy and respect and realise this is their living your talking about." boojum the brown bunny Subject: Sketchbook Medians Date: 15 Dec 1996 04:22:01 GMT Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry References: <58730h$7bk@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32AADF69.111C@ma.ultranet.com> <58fic1$tc4@news3.realtime.net> <32AB773F.531A@ma.ultranet.com> <58kreg$9as@news3.realtime.net> <58l11s$5mu@eve.enteract.com> <58okkt$6gq@masters0.InterNex.Net> From: cat@bga.com (Dr. Cat) Message-ID: <58vud9$71g@news3.realtime.net> Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting Jeff Mancebo (jeff@unix.tggh.net) wrote: : boojum grins happily, "That said, if you have your shiney new : sketchbook, here are some things I can reccomend to help you get : alot of enjoyment from it." [snip] You know, if you do have one or more sketchbooks, you could follow boojum's advice, or Rich Chandler's advice, or Jim Groat's advice, or all of the above. And maybe you should. Buuuut... If you don't have a sketchbook yet, there's that whole question of whether to even get one. Here's an alternate list of advice things you might want to consider if you like it. Pick this one, or somebody else's, or nobodys, or make up your own. Whatever. This is just one way to go about getting original art things from artists. 1. If you want to pay an artist to draw something for you, go up to them and ask them about comissioning a drawing. Ask whether they will matte the piece for you. If not, consider framing or matting it yourself or having a friend or a framing shop do it. Pay the artist some money, and get a piece of art that's much easier to display on your wall than a sketchbook. Snicker at having cleverly avoided the faintest possible confusion over sketchbook etiquette issues that fans and artists sometimes run into. Remember that most artists have access to various sorts of paper, canvas, posterboard, and other things to draw stuff on and sell it, 'cause they've been doing that already anyway. It's also been observed that almost all of the writing and drawing implements that will make marks on sketchbook paper will do so on most other kinds of paper as well, just so you know. 2. If you like the idea of artists doing sketches for you for free, allow them to do so any time THEY tell you they would like to do so. If they just draw something and give it to you without having said in advance they were going to do so, accept it and be surprised and say thank you. Don't worry about carrying a sketchbook to accept such generosity in, as most artists have no problem finding things to draw stuff on, whether it be paper, disposable napkins, or the back of your bald head. (Note - you may need to use mirrors to see the art in that last case.) I have a fine piece of placemat-art drawn with crayons that I actually had framed. If you get to a furry con and drool with praise over your favorite artist's work and buy them lunch and stuff and they aren't so bursting with desire to draw you a free sketch that they offer without being asked... Figure it won't spoil their weekend to miss the opportunity to do a free sketch for you, shrug, and go through life without it. *********************************************************************** Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions ** ********************************************** Watch this space! Furcadia - coming soon to your computer! ** *********************************************************************** (Disclaimer: The notion of not pestering people for free stuff if they don't offer probably doesn't apply to artists who are your close personal friends. That type of pestering doesn't fall under the "rules about pestering artists" so much as "rules about pestering friends". These days it's probably considered proper etiquette to pester your friends, and even rude not to, so hey, go for uit!)